Panasonic Plasma VT25 Series

[Anonymous]

I need to calibrate several Panasonic VT25 Series sets in the very near future. As these are basically brand new, I have not seen any comments on calibrating these – but as they are THX Certified, I would *assume* they could be made pretty spot on – if not very close to there when they are shipped.

Is access to the SM in these newer 2010 models the same as in the past?

Do the differences seen in and out of the SM still exist in these THX Certified Sets as they did for the past Panasonic Plasmas?

Is there a comparable ISF ccc menu in THX Certified Displays? If so, how is it accessed?

If no ISF ccc type menu, is it suggested to work with these in SM or UM – or is there enough control for GS and Color Management in UM?

Thanks

Topic

[Anonymous]

I’d like to know this as well. I just got off the phone with a client about this!! I wonder what the ISFccc interface will be like. What’s the best way to do this one?

Oh, and my client was mentioning that a member on AVS mentioned that the Infinite Black on all Panasonics was only applicable to VIVID mode? I haven’t played with a new Panasonic yet although I’m calibrating one next week…is Infinite Black a feature that destroys image quality and kills shadow detail, or is it a darker panel that actully delivers deeper blacks?

[Anonymous]

Here’s a suggestion for THX. How about having Gregg or Michael examine each THX Certified display as soon as it passes certification. Then release to just the THX calibration community how best to go about performing a complete calibration on it. This should be done BEFORE the set is released to the market. We all would then be ready to respond to the market instantly with the right tools to tweak a THX Certified product. What a concept!!!!

Would this build loyalty among the grads of the calibration training? You betcha!

Would this further build value and prestige for the classes? Darn right it would!

Would this enhance the marketing clout of THX in general? Of course!

Is this an item worth conducting a poll among the grads?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

“Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging”

[Anonymous]

Answering one of my initial questions myself – even though it appears Mike beat me to the answer, these sets DO have an ISFccc according to the spec sheet. HOWEVER, there is no mention of it in the Users Manual.

Alan – a great idea! – sorta why I was asking for this information here – hoping this would be the best source of info as it IS a THX Certified device.

[Anonymous]

@Alan Brown 1995 wrote:

How about having Gregg or Michael examine each THX Certified display as soon as it passes certification. Then release to just the THX calibration community how best to go about performing a complete calibration on it. This should be done BEFORE the set is released to the market. We all would then be ready to respond to the market instantly with the right tools to tweak a THX Certified product.

Nice thought…

It would also be nice to think that these steps were thought out and prepared when the TV was designed. This way a calibrator knows exactly what to expect when approaching a THX display. THX should add to their standards a hidden unlockable/lockable THX MENU MODE that EVERY THX TV. It would have a menu that looks the same no matter if it’s an LG, Panasonic, or other.

If THX wants to support their community of “Professional Calibrators” they need to make calibration a bit easier and consistent from one manufacturer to the next. A THX MENU MODE accessible for calibrators only is such a no-brainer and should have been in their list of priorities especially when certifying calibrators.

A THX-certified TV should include all adjustments needed for a THX calibrator to set the TV correctly.

All THX-certified TVs should have the same menu or “software adjustments” we need to get the job done and then some. No minimums allowed. The limitations of the design of the TV being the only thing getting in the way…but then, THX has set minimums and those minimums, based on what I know, should create a good picture.

So, I’ll say the same:

Would this build loyalty among the grads of the calibration training? You betcha!

Would this further build value and prestige for the classes? Darn right it would!

Would this enhance the marketing clout of THX in general? Of course!

Is this an item worth conducting a poll among the grads?

…and…how about opening up a discussion as to what we would like to see included in such a theoretical menu?? The grassroots is a great place to start.

[Anonymous]

@Mike Osadciw 2005 wrote:

Nice thought…

It would also be nice to think that these steps were thought out and prepared when the TV was designed. This way a calibrator knows exactly what to expect when approaching a THX display. THX should add to their standards a hidden unlockable/lockable THX MENU MODE that EVERY THX TV. It would have a menu that looks the same no matter if it’s an LG, Panasonic, or other.

If THX wants to support their community of “Professional Calibrators” they need to make calibration a bit easier and consistent from one manufacturer to the next. A THX MENU MODE accessible for calibrators only is such a no-brainer and should have been in their list of priorities especially when certifying calibrators.

A THX-certified TV should include all adjustments needed for a THX calibrator to set the TV correctly.

All THX-certified TVs should have the same menu or “software adjustments” we need to get the job done and then some. No minimums allowed. The limitations of the design of the TV being the only thing getting in the way…but then, THX has set minimums and those minimums, based on what I know, should create a good picture.

So, I’ll say the same:

Would this build loyalty among the grads of the calibration training? You betcha!

Would this further build value and prestige for the classes? Darn right it would!

Would this enhance the marketing clout of THX in general? Of course!

Is this an item worth conducting a poll among the grads?

…and…how about opening up a discussion as to what we would like to see included in such a theoretical menu?? The grassroots is a great place to start.

Excellent suggestions! Let’s get those resident THX PhDs working on this stuff! Some of these suggested features might cost extra for the manufacturers to implement. How about a deluxe line of “THX Ultra” Certified displays?

[Anonymous]

@Alan Brown 2006 wrote:

Excellent suggestions! Let’s get those resident THX PhDs working on this stuff! Some of these suggested features might cost extra for the manufacturers to implement. How about a deluxe line of “THX Ultra” Certified displays?

One would think that THX would want a THX Certified Display to able to be calibrated properly.

Worse yet – there are several posts on AVS in the VT20/VT25 thread that using THX Mode only results in a measured gamma of 1.8 as opposed to 2.2 and change with the other setting – which really makes one wonder what is going on.

The set locally has 169 hours on the panel. I might go over this weekend to the client’s house and shoot it just to get get a baseline reading and try and gauge if there are any gotcha’s in this set.

[Anonymous]

@Alan Brown 2006 wrote:

How about a deluxe line of “THX Ultra” Certified displays?

I don’t agree with a deluxe line of THX Ultra displays.

In my opinion, the THX-Certified display (in theory) is the deluxe line set apart from the rest of the manufacturer’s series.

Any suggestion of a “lower-end series” THX TV makes it appear that there is something wrong with that TV. Customers say, “If THX is the best, why can’t I get the best on the base THX model?”

Our response “well…it can be close to what we desire, but not all the way there. Therefore, you need this Ultra model to get a good picture.”

Have any of you guys been on a sales floor? I did it for 11 years. Try telling things like this to a potential customer. They HATE it. They want to know BLACK and WHITE. GOOD PICTURE vs. BAD PICTURE. None of this in-between stuff and if you spend XXX more money, you’ll get close enough…it just confuses the heck out of them more, delays their decision to buy, and gives them less confidence in the manufacturer and the THX branding.

Besides this…do we really need more TVs in a manufacturer’s line up?? There are already FAR TOO MANY. Tales from the sales floor: consumers are getting frustrated!!

[Anonymous]

Here is what the production version of the Panasonic VT25 looks like out of the box in THX Mode with Default Settings. The readings speak for themselves.

I sent a copy of this to the THX Display People who certify displays. No response as of this time.

Based on this, even with THX Mode, there should be plenty of jobs available for good calibrators.

[Anonymous]

Randy

If this is an Excel file, it doesn’t open on this end. Unreadable/incompatible/corrupted…

[Anonymous]

I was able to open it.

[Anonymous]

@Mike Osadciw 2024 wrote:

Randy

If this is an Excel file, it doesn’t open on this end. Unreadable/incompatible/corrupted…

Out of curiousity, which version of Excel do you have?

I just downloaded it from the link on the forum above and opened it with Excel 2007. It came out the software package as an .xls file and as it was saved in the .xls format and not the newer Excel 2007 .xlsx format, I assumed it was backwards compatiable – but maybe not. Or perhaps since I saved it with Excel 2007 it was “upgraded” to the newer format without changing the extension ? Dunno.

Roughly 10 other people (not from this forum) have been able to open it in the past 48 hours – but 1 this morning said they could NOT open it. They did have an older version of Excel.

I’m saving it here in the VERY old Excel 95 format. Try this one and let me know if it works ok.

[Anonymous]

Hi Randy

I have MS Excel 2003 SP3.

The file you just posted worked for me!!

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Starting here on AVS is a great example of why the EDUCATION process is a VITAL part of any Calibration

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18712288&postcount=1516

You can see from above attachment several posts up what a VT25 (54″) in Default THX Mode looks like – @ 5,000K Kelvin, desaturated colors, Secondary Color Coordinates way off and gamma pretty screwed up.

Furthermore, the feeding frenzy takes off even more with a review here noting a .0004 cd/m Black Level (that works out to 0.000116745 fL).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18711309#post18711309

A simple view of the original webpage clearly shows the meter the are using.

http://hdtelevizija.com/2010/05/30/recenzija-plazma-3d-panasonic-tx-p50vt20e-127-cm/7/

Unfortunately, the specs of that meter are not even close to accurate @ that light level.

http://www.cjcstrategists.com/resources/xrite/Hubble/perform_specs.pdf

FWIW, I have measured the 54″ VT25 with a Konica-Minolta LS-100 which is spec’d to .001 fL. With a 0 White Pattern and -3 Pluge Patterns to make sure the panel does not shut down/go into Infinite Black Mode – and out of 50 readings over 10 minutes, 49 all came out at 0.004 fL.

Thus again – EDUCATION of the Customer is vital. Believing all of what they read on AVS (or other internet web sites) is very dangerous.

You also need to know what you can and cannot measure with your particular meter (and where its accuracy is suspect). As stated in class, verifying with known reference material is the key final part of any calibration.

EDIT: No mention in the article of the fact that the color of the light when measured at “Black” was as Blue as you can possibly imagine. X= .215, y= .021 .

[Anonymous]

Yup…education is key. I calibrated the G20 the other night. The son stayed with me for the evening and watched me, asked questions, and understood what I was doing. His parents did not (stay), which I found they share the TV with him (his TV but in the living room). I got a phone call the next day. Parents think it’s too dark in the blacks…they want it higher…they didn’t understand why the black level was where it was and how it relates to source material (the complaint is on HD cable, their only HD source!) Luckily they are local ’cause the parents will be in there with me when I show them the change. It’s their TV. They can ask for whatever they want after I’m done. After all, they are the ones who will be watching it!!

As an aside, the G20 black level came in at .0076fL with the Minolta CS-1000A. I was expecting it to be a bit lower considering they are advertising better blacks this year. I’m going to measure the S-series vs. the G to see if in fact the G is much lower than advertised…and .0076fL isn’t that low. The last PRO-111 I measured came in at .0003fL!

Colors are very close to where they are supposed to be (except magenta).

Gamma @ 2.06 and to get that I had to crush blacks from 0-3%…you’d need to crush a bit more shadow detail to get to 2.20…but do you want to?? As my personal rule, I always kept it to no more than 4% to obtain a desired gamma result.

dE after calibration was about 2.5 from 10-100 except for 30%, which gave me a dE of 5. Balancing act…if I kept 30% below 4, 10% became far too blue with dE of well over 12. So, keep 10% @ D65 so dark scenes don’t look blue for the very minor trade-off at 30%.

The THX panel still needs lots of work!! None of the grayscale presets are close enough.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I would be careful stating those Y fL numbers with any level of confidence as that is well beyond the specs of that meter.

[Author]

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